[Discuss] duchy system rework

[Tessa]

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RESPONSE: They are only of questionable necessity in certain cases, 
such as
bottom rung regions. The point of having all 4 in all cases is that 
what ever
variable that decides what each job is capable of is a matter that is 
detached
 from having to be programmed.  Do you have a concrete programmable 
threshold
that would define when a job becomes too low rung in both RP and actual
functionality to deprive the option of it being there for the players? 
I
certainly don't.   To say that certain regions have 4 and others have 2 
would be
arbitrary, limiting, and more time consuming to program.
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I wouldn't call the regions with 2-4 kngihts "bottom rung" really, if I 
had to to guess based on what I've seen I would say *most* regions *do* 
have 2-4 knights. Only townslands and cities can afford more. If in 
*most* cases the positions are unnecessary then I would say such 
positions are not worth programing at all.

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RESPONSE: That is excellent, but the criteria for such a situation to 
exist is
less likely than it should be in my opinion.
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I don't think that the criteria itself doesn't exist, but that it's 
simply a matter of most/many Sponsors just not wanting or not caring 
enough to use their power for themselves. The option is always there 
though.

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RESPONSE:  If even you had the marshal in the palm of your hand, in the 
end it
is still just red paper. It is good that RP is what keeps this 
together. It wold
be the same with my own system. It is just that what the army can do is 
entirely
realm based. No matter how much your army hates the king, no matter how 
much
your army loves the duke(you)--------((I'm...not a duke...))-------No 
matter how much the king had absolutely
nothing to do with your TO. It ends up being the king's decision who 
rules the
new conquest and that person becomes the king's vassal. It should be 
the sponcer
of the senior most marshal(the marshal that has the others paying 
homage) or if
there is more than one recombinant army, which ever has the senior most 
sponcer
in title, if both are equal, which army is larger.
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While your system sounds good for conquered regions as you wrote it out 
above (although the method of deciding who among equals should get the 
region...should it be larger in numbers or stronger in CS, or even 
which army has been aiding the TO longer?) it still boils down to each 
region having it's own mini-army, to which I am still opposed. An army 
of four (taking an average of three knights plus the lord) can't do 
anything but loot or scout on its own, no chance of TOs unless each 
noble maintained a 55+ man unit, and on a small-region-salary, that's 
rather unlikely. If mini-armies are *always* having to combine their 
numbers to accomplish anything then eventually players will become 
annoyed and want the step taken out entirely by being able to go back 
to setting up their armies exactly how they want them. It's a matter of 
convenience more than IC intrigue.

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I completely agree with the latter part of this. That is entirely what 
my system
is supposed to encourage. In the olden days, the king raised his 
personal army
and called on dukes for their armies. The dukes called on counts and so 
on. When
the king wasn't fighting, the armies went home to do whatever they 
wanted. That
does not happen here. The duchy based armies(that belong to the realm) 
seem to
be on 24/7. In reality the counts would start to get very mad that 
their knights
were constantly out of their own personal service.  With every region 
having an
army that has to be combined into larger ones, it gives region lords 
more option
to just say 'no.' or even just order his part of the army home, or even
elsewhere.  It should be entirely within his rights to do so. It should 
be
shameful for a duke to declare war on his own vassal for such a reason. 
I
strongly believe that once land is given, all you have is fealty, the 
land is
theirs now. I am starting to get off topic...
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Maybe a real life feudal lord would be angry that he and his kngihts 
are always off fighting in a war, but in the world of BM quite the 
opposite is true. Almost everyone *wants* to be out fighting battles, 
including the lords themselves. Hardly anyone  wants to stay home and 
take care of peasants because there's no honour, no glory, no 
nothing...so how much game-play sense would it make for a lord to be 
upset about his knights having a good time?

Lords currently have the option to say no. Messages--->all in 
realm--->"Roleplay"---->"I find your declaration of war on NotSoBad to 
be baseless and a clear act of dispicable powermongering greed, my 
knights will not be marching with the army ~continues to express  his 
indignation at this most unjust war for 3500 characters down the 
page~"-->Send.  Just like that. Sure there will be consequences, maybe 
good maybe bad, but everything action has consequences. And as previous 
threads have said, a Lord's orders go above those of a Marshal, so if 
the lord *really* *really* wants his knights to go home all he has to 
do is say so. What happens as a result is all roleplayed choices made 
by the characters involved.

((Which brings me to something slightly unrelated, why (and since when) 
are regions lords no longer vassals of the Duke? It seems like we're 
skipping a link in the chain with *all* lords being sworn directly to 
the Ruler))

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>I have to disagree that the lords are disconnected. Many lords are in
the army that the majority of their knights are in.

RESPONSE: The question from me to you is, why are a lord and his 
knights in an
army when he has his own(which may or may not be attached to this other 
army by
homage)? Your opinion seems to be based on a quality of the current 
system that
is overwritten by a quality of mine.
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Well no, I was commenting on the current system in relation to yours. 
When you said that lords are disconnected I assumed that was something 
you viewed as a problem in the current system and used that to form  
aspects of your system. I was merely saying that lord-disconnection is 
not really a problem in the current system at all.

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RESPONSE: by haveing his army TO that region. Remember, diplomacy would 
be
region based. you would have to be at war with his vassal to TO him. By
conquering a liege, all his vassals that were not at war with you are 
expected
to swear fealty, but do not have to necessarily.

So what if an enemy vassal's army is paying homage to his liege's army, 
but is
at peace or even allied with you? They still are. Their army is in 
service; it
is no longer theirs until it is no longer paying homage. this includes 
expenses.
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Okay that time it made a little more sense but I still don't understand 
that last part completely. How is a vassal allied with you if the 
vassals' army is at war with you? Do you mean literally or in a 
roleplayed sense like 'characterA from RealmX is friendly with 
characterB from RealmY even though realms X and Y are at war'? And 
this, "Their army is in service; it is no longer theirs until it is no 
longer paying homage" what do you mean? ;_;

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Region lords have to pretty much give their knights away to dukes 
rather than use them for their own
purposes. Dukes(assuming they are the sponcers in the current army 
system) have
nearly no fear of their vassals pushing for independence from them.
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This is true only insofar as it just makes sense for people to do it 
that way. Lords don't *have* to let the Duke/Sponsor use their knights 
but there wouldn't be much to do if they didn't, for anybody. A single 
region's resources can accomplish little on their own, even under your 
system, which is why duchies  and duchal armies come about in the first 
place. Regions and their noble occupants working together so everybody 
gets what they need. If a lord feels his region isn't getting what it 
needs, then he is free to switch duchies. Most people don't, but  I 
wouldn't say it's because of a lack of code.