[Discuss] too many buttons: the search for more time

[Anthony Cerqueira]

On 11/22/07, psymann <psymann at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> tj layer wrote:
> > This is supposed to be a lightweight game that can be easily played in
> > a few minutes each day. It is supposed to have a strong focus on the
> > interactions between characters, no matter how well roleplayed they
> > are. And roleplaying is to be encouraged. There are other aspects too,
> > like the element of strategy, and politics.
>
> I do agree with you on this, but here's my issue:
>
> I have four characters.  It takes me about 120 seconds to click the
> buttons for all four characters in total.  It then takes me many minutes
> to read all the RP from other people - many more if I write some myself.
>
> I agree that roleplaying is to be encouraged.  And I agree that the game
> should stay true to its aims to be lightweight.  The paradox is that I'd
> guess 90% or more of the time taken for me to play the game is
> surrounding roleplay, so lots of roleplay and lightweight-ness are
> contradictory aims.



Spending time on RP isn't quite the same as making the game
heavyweight... you don't have a time limit to finish an rp, and can
thus do it on
your own time, whenever that is.

You also mention elements of strategy and politics.  Politics is very
> hard to get into unless you are in high positions.  I know someone will
> say that to get involved all I have to do is plan a rebellion or
> something over-the-top, or keep questioning the government all the time,
> but to do any friendly politics rather than abrasive politics, I find it
> hard.


I'm not exactly certain where this idea that politics is difficult to get
into unless you're a king came from. Becoming activly political in the
highest levels of government would indeed require such a position, and
rebellions or confrontation with said government would catapult you to that
stage, but what about the politics of the lesser houses and positions? The
give and take between knights and lords, the deals and agreements between
merchants, the dances that go on in guilds, the subtle games between
infiltrators, the macinations of cults and secret wars between
organizations? Politics is not monopolized by
the governments of each realm at all, they're just the most obvious source.


Meanwhile, strategy is a similar story.  Overall realm strategy is again
> hard to do when you are not in a top position or in the military
> discussion group that many realms have.  Yes, you can look at scout
> reports and suggest something, but you rarely have the rest of the
> information those in power/knowledge have, so your ideas are liable to
> be lacking in quality.  [You say that there are tons of buttons for
> every class, and that "every day you have to push a bunch of these
> buttons to be 'productive' in your realm".  Perhaps we have different
> ideas of what a "bunch" means, but for all four characters, on a busy
> turn, I might do six scoutings, make three travel movements, change unit
> settings once, do one thing like survey admin or civil work, and hunt
> three groups of undead.  And that's to be completely effective - in fact
> I'd be effective enough without bothering to scout since someone else
> could do it.  So aside from messages, that's really only six action
> buttons.]


I think what he's trying to say is that a realm expects you to be
productive, which only requires pushing buttons. If a button pushing machine
is all they need then it is no fun for the common knight, but when the realm
needs people, real people who think and act as only independents can, then
you've got something better going.

Stratagy is hard to get into for the common knight I must agree. With fights
taking place between such huge armies one man or woman would be hard
 pressed to figure out how things work let alone how to improve. Not to
mention the trend of annihilation wars making it so a new player doesn't
have the time to learn without getting their nation killed. That's one
reason why I like Beluaterra so much, lots of monsters to fight and learn
the battle system on a small scale. Until this invasion the usual orders
from the general were "find something and kill it", and after that people
were left to coordinate with each other and hunt down the enemy on their
own. Armies wandering off every which way, attacking and retreating
like leaves in a storm, quite a mess, but each person got to be a real
commander and the enemy did end up dead.

I agree when you say BM should have RP, with elements of politics and
> strategy, while staying lightweight.  Strategy for many characters is
> pretty much non-existant, though if more buttons were implemented as
> I've suggested in the past - with useable "default" settings - they'd
> remain lightweight but you'd be able to turn your brain on if you had
> the time and inclination.  Politics will always be hard to be involved
> in if you're not in a position of power/trust, or are a rebel.  And RP
> would have more avenues for uncreative types like me if there was more
> to do.  If there are more buttons to click, even frivolous ones, then
> there are more things you can do well or badly, and more chance for you
> to RP yourself doing them, and for other people to RP in support or
> against you.
>
> So the solution of increasing both Strategy and RP is to give those
> lower nobles more choices that they are in a position to make - allowing
> them both to use strategy to pick their choices, and RP to express the
> result.  And to keep it as lightweight as possible, give default
> settings for all options that will at the very least make you perform
> adequately in all necessary areas.



More choice is good, what I think Tj is saying is that we should make
sure they're good choices, not just add choice for the sake of it.

Oh, talking of which, did anyone read my ideas about new options for
> simple knights ;)  hee hee



I did and I'm quite impressed with them, you've given it much thought
and it shows.
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