[Discuss] Titan Reform Proposal

[Timothy Collett]

On Apr 15, 2007, at 10:01 AM, Loren Schmidt wrote:

> On 4/14/07, Timothy Collett <danaris at mac.com> wrote:
>>
>> Here are the issues that we see, briefly:
>> - No defense is allowed for the accused
>> - No clarification is allowed for the accuser
>
> I do believe this was quite intentional.  A report is considered  
> prima facie and is judged on that alone.  As the wiki page says,  
> "The Titans are also not a court of law. There is no trial. If the  
> case is in any way unclear, they will usually issue just a warning  
> and err "in dubio pro reo" so that there is no harm (aside from  
> maybe a stern reprimand) to the accused."  As such I find these two  
> 'problems' to be intentional design elements.

Well, frankly, I and many other people disagree strongly on this  
point.  The Titans are, de facto, the court of law for BattleMaster.   
However many times you say they aren't, that's the closest to what  
their function is, and that's how 95% of the players of the game  
perceive them.  They are the only way to resolve injustices, and  
thus, when someone is punished by them--**even if that punishment is  
only a warning**--it is perceived that they are handing down  
justice.  So the fact that they don't even take some of the basic  
steps that a court should take--hear both sides, make sure all  
evidence is gathered--is seen as a significant flaw in the Titan system.

>> - Only single players may be targeted
>
> I see no reason why it is necessary to automate multiple  
> complaints.  If you're going to write a complaint to the titans, it  
> had better be about that individual player (supposed multi or not),  
> not some mass group.

If an entire realm is, for instance, cheating or profiting knowingly  
and willfully from someone else's cheating, why should there not be a  
mechanism for reporting that?

>> - The Titans are often perceived as unresponsive to attempts to
>> communicate directly
>> - Their areas of responsibility are not clearly defined, and often
>> apparently contradictory
>
> "The Titans' business is OOC things and only OOC things." - Wiki.   
> How that is interpreted by the Titans (remember there are different  
> Titans for all the islands) is up to them.  The Titan system  
> doesn't work on a common law principle, each case is unique and  
> treated as such.

That's useless and totally counterproductive.

If something is punishable by the Titans in one place, it cursed well  
better be punishable in another place.  Since they're "not the RP  
police," that shouldn't even have an exception for the FEI.
If I do something wrong on Atamara, and am let slide, and someone  
else does the *exact same thing* on Beluterra, and is punished, that  
is unfair, unjust, and indicative of a flawed system.

>> - In particular, they almost always avoid any issue that could be
>> seen as an RP matter
>
> See above, if it could be seen as an RP matter it probably was an  
> RP matter and should've been handled there.  If you don't like how  
> a ruler is ruling, or a judge is judging then your problem is with  
> them.  Now if a player interjects themselves as an OOC element into  
> their character in their explanations then you have a problem,  
> though even there you could play it off that the character is going  
> insane.

Questioning nobility because they want to strip titles.  Using OOC  
information IC.  Banning people purely because they don't like the  
player.  Moving the capital for purely strategic reasons.

These are all issues that skirt the boundaries between IC and OOC,  
and can be considered issues of "bad RP".  I am reasonably sure I  
have heard of cases of each rejected by the Titans because they are  
"not the RP police".  However, these are not *just* RP issues--they  
are also potential abuses of OOC knowledge or features.

>> - Since there is no public record of Titan cases, what the playerbase
>> of the game at large sees most is the problems with the Titans,
>> leading to less respect and trust than they probably deserve
>
>  I'm sorry come again?  When did it become our right as players to  
> question the Titan's integrity because there isn't a way to pour  
> over every detail?  If you don't trust the Titan then perhaps  
> you're in the wrong place.  They volunteered and were selected by  
> Tom.  Do you honestly think he'd let anyone he didn't trust in some  
> way to be a Titan?  Even if they did add a list of all the things  
> that have been mentioned, there are some that I reported that I'd  
> rather not see out in the open as it was a personal matter that  
> needed some arbitration.  Besides which, the list wouldn't include  
> the names of the Titans who heard a complaint anyways, it'd defeat  
> the purpose of having anonymity as a Titan.

Err...no, I think you *TOTALLY* misunderstood what the point of that  
was.  Let me repeat, with clarification:

Because people only hear about the Titans when there are complaints  
about them that erupt all over the D-list, there is a public  
perception that the Titans are unfair and capricious.  The people  
don't trust them *in general* because they've heard of issues  
rejected for no apparent logical reason.  They don't respect them  
because they've seen people punished for things that seem trivial, or  
things that were totally innocent when placed in context.  And that's  
*all* they've seen.

If the list of Titan decisions were made public, people could look at  
it and say, "Well, I heard about this case that was such a problem-- 
but wow, they've handled about 3 dozen other cases in the past 2  
months that no one complained about at all.  I guess they must not be  
so bad after all."

And, though you seem to feel that it's somehow a bad thing, people  
could say, "Oh, someone got warned for saying X, or doing Y.  I guess  
that's something that I shouldn't do."  Or, "Someone was reported for  
saying Z, but the Titans decided it wasn't a problem.  I guess I  
don't have to be afraid to say that."  In other words, use the prior  
cases as precedent.

Timothy Collett
Anaris Family

--

A crash reduces
Your expensive computer
To a simple stone.
~haiku~



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