[Discuss] Titan Reform Proposal

[Alex Davies]

>From: "Loren Schmidt" <loren.schmidt at gmail.com>
>
>On 4/15/07, Timothy Collett <danaris at mac.com> wrote:
>>
>>Well, frankly, I and many other people disagree strongly on this
>>point.  The Titans are, de facto, the court of law for BattleMaster.
>>However many times you say they aren't, that's the closest to what
>>their function is, and that's how 95% of the players of the game
>>perceive them.  They are the only way to resolve injustices, and
>>thus, when someone is punished by them--**even if that punishment is
>>only a warning**--it is perceived that they are handing down
>>justice.  So the fact that they don't even take some of the basic
>>steps that a court should take--hear both sides, make sure all
>>evidence is gathered--is seen as a significant flaw in the Titan system.
>
>
>What sort of injustice are you talking about?  If as I said prima facie the
>social contract or whatever else is being brought to question was violated
>then they do something.  It's not justice, it's not a judicial body, it's a
>method of community policing that says, in this instance a reasonable 
>person
>can see what was said and say it was wrong.  I highly doubt Tim that more
>than 10% of the players have ever submitted more than one thing to the
>Titans.  I never hear them mentioned anymore, and haven't really seen a
>decision in months.  I obviously don't have the numbers and neither do you
>as to how people perceive them so please don't claim to know some truth
>which is unknowable.  It's pure rhetoric and doesn't belong in a
>conversation.

You don't need numbers, when there is a not insignificant amount of people 
(I can think of at least half a dozen people off the top of my head) who 
think that the titans don't wpork well as a system, yet I don't often see 
people claiming how well the titans work (which is again one of the problems 
that Tim tries to address).

>>
>>If an entire realm is, for instance, cheating or profiting knowingly
>>and willfully from someone else's cheating, why should there not be a
>>mechanism for reporting that?
>
>
>And how can you show that each individual player was knowingly cheating and
>abusing the game?  A blanket statement saying that everyone is cheating
>isn't something that the Titans can really resolve on their own.  You're
>asking Tom to take up his time to investigate it.
>
>That's useless and totally counterproductive.

Actually, we (or at least I) don't know what tools the titans have to 
investiagte these things. Why should it take up Tom's time, if the titans 
have tools to investgate (say looking at messages in a realm[or the lack 
thereof], investigating possible mutis et al.)

>>
>>If something is punishable by the Titans in one place, it cursed well
>>better be punishable in another place.  Since they're "not the RP
>>police," that shouldn't even have an exception for the FEI.
>>If I do something wrong on Atamara, and am let slide, and someone
>>else does the *exact same thing* on Beluterra, and is punished, that
>>is unfair, unjust, and indicative of a flawed system.
>
>
>Sure, but that doesn't mean that they have to operate on a common law 
>system
>with prior precedent.  Each case is unique no matter how similar you want 
>to
>make it sound, and they're reviewed as individual cases.  And don't forget,
>different islands have different Titans, and as the Wiki says if you have a
>problem with something email the Titans and or Tom.  Is it really that
>difficult?

...have you tried e-mailing the titans or Tom about an issue? Not to whinge 
about past issues but i've tried that twice and nothing happened. At All. 
Not a sausage. The alternative, for the player, is to ask their ruler for 
OOC banniing for a certain reason, which isn't applicable for most 
situations, most ruler players are unwilling to do it (heck, I know a ruler 
who got punished for *not* doing it) and certainly doesn't help if it's only 
*bordering* the edge of abuse (because you've never seen it done before, 
certainly not on such a large scale).

>>
>>Questioning nobility because they want to strip titles.  Using OOC
>>information IC.  Banning people purely because they don't like the
>>player.  Moving the capital for purely strategic reasons.
>>
>>These are all issues that skirt the boundaries between IC and OOC,
>>and can be considered issues of "bad RP".  I am reasonably sure I
>>have heard of cases of each rejected by the Titans because they are
>>"not the RP police".  However, these are not *just* RP issues--they
>>are also potential abuses of OOC knowledge or features.
>
>
>Right, and if there is enough doubt that it is not an OOC abuse then it
>really isn't their place to do something.  Raise a stink with your
>characters, get other realms to support you.  I've been around long enough
>to know that crying foul all the time isn't going to make it all better, so
>do something about it.  There are entire families that the Relak family
>(mine) despises, and they generally target them whenever they're in the 
>same
>realm.  Is that a case of me not liking a player, and as a player taking it
>out on them, or is it a case of my characters not liking another set of
>characters on principle of who they are?

So naturally, you would be aquitted, and possibly be asked for a defence 
(something that doesn't happen in the current system). But that assumes all 
players have the same motivation as you. It's quite possible that someone 
for a laugh joins your realm and instantly starts slagging you off, 
protesting you if you hve acouncil position, sending you annoying messages 
because it's you as a player. I think Tim already mentioned how you can have 
OOC motivations to do things but have IC reasons anyway; I think your 
example would come under that.

>>Err...no, I think you *TOTALLY* misunderstood what the point of that
>>was.  Let me repeat, with clarification:
>>
>>Because people only hear about the Titans when there are complaints
>>about them that erupt all over the D-list, there is a public
>>perception that the Titans are unfair and capricious.  The people
>>don't trust them *in general* because they've heard of issues
>>rejected for no apparent logical reason.  They don't respect them
>>because they've seen people punished for things that seem trivial, or
>>things that were totally innocent when placed in context.  And that's
>>*all* they've seen.
>
>
>Ok, then say it were to be made public.  Who is to say that the average
>player will look up the information on the wiki and have their mind
>changed.  From my last count, there are about 75-100 people actively 
>reading
>on the wiki out of 1,800 or roughly 5% of the player base.  Of that 5%
>player base can it be reasonably assumed that they are the ones most active
>in ensuring the game isn't over-run by abusers etc, and that they have
>personal experience with the Titan system and have seen some both rejected
>and accepted?  Probably.  The fact of the matter is that the effort of
>putting up the big list will do very little.  The rules are already posted
>in big red letters everywhere.  What good does it to say look at all these
>times the rules where violated and all these times where it was
>questionable.

Because we don't have many solid rules, because it's understood that you're 
supposed to play inside the spirit of the game, as if with friends. 
Unfiortunately, very few people seem to get that.

>It all still does come down to trust within the community, of Tom and the
>Titans.  People are going to trust them or they're not.  A giant list of
>things they've decided isn't going to prove anything to anyone, especially
>when nobody is listening.
>
>And, though you seem to feel that it's somehow a bad thing, people
>>could say, "Oh, someone got warned for saying X, or doing Y.  I guess
>>that's something that I shouldn't do."  Or, "Someone was reported for
>>saying Z, but the Titans decided it wasn't a problem.  I guess I
>>don't have to be afraid to say that."  In other words, use the prior
>>cases as precedent.
>>
>
>
>This already happens without what you're proposing, so I fail to see how
>changing things will do anything other than maintain the status quo.
>

It doesn't? There are still people punished for doing something they didn't 
know was against the rules. Some reference on what's accpted and what's not 
would be nice - particularly if there's say some reason why someone was 
treated differently than another (other than the titans being different per 
island).

The1exile (AKA SniperChief)

Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane 
mittam.

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